Tightening up the sidebar. Here are all the quotes that deal with the reversal of the Earth's retrograde rotation:
"The last of these catastrophic events occurred on 23 March - 686. Fortunately, men were not illiterate at the time of these catastrophes." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1979
"The most incredible story." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950
"Uranus has the sun rising and setting neither in the east nor in the west. So it is not a law that a planet of the solar system must rotate from west to east and that the sun must rise in the east." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950
"That the sun will not rise to-morrow is no less intelligible a proposition, and implies no more contradiction, than the affirmation, that it will rise." -- David Hume, philosopher, 1772
"The nations of Culhua, or Mexico, says Gomara, who wrote about the middle of the sixteenth century, believe according to their hieroglyphical paintings, that, previous to the sun which now enlightens them, four had already been successively extinguished. These four suns are as many ages, in which our species has been annihilated by inundations, by earthquakes, by a general conflagration, and by the effect of destroying tempests." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, geologist, 1814
"Soles fuerre quinque." [There were five suns] -- Lucius Ampelius, tutor, date unknown
"The sun set in the East." -- Apollodoros, Scholium on the Iliad: Book II, ~143 B.C.
"There did really happen, and will again happen, like many other events of which ancient tradition has preserved the record, the portent which is traditionally said to have occurred in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes. ... how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.
"Then, it was then that Zeus changed the radiant paths of the stars, and the light of the sun, and the bright face of dawn; and the sun drove across the western back of the sky with hot flame from heaven's fires, while the rain-clouds went northward and Ammon's lands [Egypt] grew parched and faint, not knowing moisture, robbed of heaven's fairest showers of rain." --Euripides, playwright, Electra, 408 B.C.
"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotos, historian, ~430 B.C.
"Let not the sun go down and disappear into darkness." -- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book II: 413
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" -- Matthew 24:29
"Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God." -- Micah 3:6-7
"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:" -- Amos 8:9
"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." -- Isaiah 38:8
"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed..." -- Joshua, 10:13
"Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -- Joshua 10:13
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29 comments:
QF, can you repost your comment?
I had to delete the post on account of a typo I made.
QF wrote, "Quite vague words there."
Sorry about that...=)
no worries....Quite vague things are said in those quotes, some of them seem to be talking about reversal of rotation, others about axial tilts or shifts, still others seem to be discussing north-south pole seasonal occurances, and yet still others could be about clouds of black dust in the skies due to volcanic activity.
I wonder if any of these are due to people 'losing their bearings' or simply 'losing track of time' or in 'translation-interpritation errors'?
Then, there is also the questions of 'How much in the easterly or northerly direction??' and 'When did this all occur assuming it ever did occur?'
Finally, if it did occur, 'what caused it?' and 'what evidence is there to support these claims?'
QF,
"'When did this all occur assuming it ever did occur?'"
The first quote gives a specific date - March 23rd, 686 BC. And also the beginning of the age of Nabonassar another date - 747 BC which coincides, not by accident, with the first Olympiad.
"Finally, if it did occur, 'what caused it?'"
Comet Venus and a perturbed Mars.
"'what evidence is there to support these claims?'"
Historical, archaeological, and literary.
What evidence do you have to support the claim that there has been no change in the solar system for 6 billion years?
I never made the claim that "there has been no change in the solar system for 6 billion years". Although, I do find the quotes interesting and all.
I'm interested in the archeological evidence for this event that happened in 686-747 BCE. But moreso, I would think that such an event as the Earth spinning in the complete opposite direction would reak complete widespread havoc on all of humanity, which is something that would be widely known to academia if such an event happened. Consider the utter mayhem involved in such a rotation reversal, it would drastically change weather patterns and everything, deserts would instantaneously become wetlands and wetlands would instantaneously become deserts with such a reversal due to the trade currents reversing directions and the lee-sides of mountains would become the windward sides causing rivers and streams to dry up while new ones would form.
QF,
"I'm interested in the archeological evidence for this event that happened in 686-747 BCE."
"...the fire of the palace [of Tiryns] was followed immediately by the erection of the temple." -- August H. Frickenhaus, historian, 1912
"Earth spinning in the complete opposite direction would reak complete widespread havoc on all of humanity, which is something that would be widely known to academia if such an event happened."
Indeed. Plato was the first Archon of the Academy. And Herodotus is equally well known in academic circles as is Hesiod, Euripides, and Ovid.
"Consider the utter mayhem involved in such a rotation reversal, it would drastically change weather patterns and everything, deserts would instantaneously become wetlands and wetlands would instantaneously become deserts with such a reversal due to the trade currents reversing directions and the lee-sides of mountains would become the windward sides causing rivers and streams to dry up while new ones would form."
Exactly. See Euripides, Ovid, and Velikovsky on this subject.
Well, there are all kinds of bizzare things that have been said throughout the annals of history. The forces necessary for reversing the spin of the Earth would have to be tremendous, far more than the forces required for gradual plate techtonics and for subduction to occur.
Two of those "authorities" that you listed 'Euripides and Ovid' were mere poets. The third one 'Velikovsky' was a science fiction writer.
QF,
"Well, there are all kinds of bizzare things that have been said throughout the annals of history."
I've read Newton and Einstein.
"The forces necessary for reversing the spin of the Earth would have to be tremendous, far more than the forces required for gradual plate techtonics and for subduction to occur."
Indeed.
"Two of those "authorities" that you listed 'Euripides and Ovid' were mere poets. The third one 'Velikovsky' was a science fiction writer."
So if poets and a so-called "science fiction writer" say 2+2=4 you automatically conclude that 2+2=5?
If two poets and one science fiction writer ... anything ... I automatically conclude that they aren't mathematicians. I would check their math, at least, to be on the safe side. But, of course, poets aren't bound by reality in the things they say, nor are science fiction writers.
I could say "The planet Jupiter came from Alpha Centuri, launched by a thunderbolt of supernova magnitudes, one time in the great distant past" .... it makes for a beautiful story too, but that doesn't mean it's true, or that I'm somehow an astronomer.
Then I could say this:
"the stars in the sky shift all over the place in erratic trajectories throughout time once every 22,000 years, this is because Phoenix is having her celestial period. From the ashes of the Phoenix, came Thor, son of Oden, and from the Hammer of Thor shook the globe making the sky dark upon the land of the Semites for 40 days and 50 nights. On the 41st evening, the Earth stopped shaking and the sky's began to clear up, the first light was shown on the Pyramidal Mountain of Horus, Son of Isis from thence to judge the 100,000 living and the 250,000 dead and the 300,000 left wounded by the darkness. This was the test of the Pantheon, for the lords were angry upon Egypt."
...and guess what? Velikovsky would try to decipher that and put it into a Sci-Fi Novel.
QF,
"If two poets and one science fiction writer ... anything ... I automatically conclude that they aren't mathematicians."
So only mathematicians can make true statements?
"I would check their math, at least, to be on the safe side."
Have you checked their math? If I say, "there was a black cat" and there is no math involved, does that mean black cats don't exist?
"But, of course, poets aren't bound by reality in the things they say, nor are science fiction writers."
And to that list you must add mathematicians and astronomers.
"I could say "The planet Jupiter came from Alpha Centuri, launched by a thunderbolt of supernova magnitudes, one time in the great distant past" .... it makes for a beautiful story too, but that doesn't mean it's true, or that I'm somehow an astronomer."
You could. But why would you? However, that's not what the poets and historians have said.
Just because I'd check somebody else's math doesn't necessarily imply that it's incorrect.
The poets have said much more absurd things than "The planet Jupiter came from Alpha Centuri, launched by a thunderbolt of supernova magnitudes, one time in the great distant past"
Why would I say something like this? To make a point that things that sound cool aren't necessarily true.
QF,
"things that sound cool aren't necessarily true."
Good to know that just because uniformitarianism and 6 billion years of no change sounds cool doesn't make it true...=)
Personally I prefer to rely on the literary and historical record since there can be no doubt that all knowledge comes from experience.
The historical record is full of vagueness and lies though. There were PR people back when all the religious myths and superstitious rituals were just being invented, too, and not to mention hallucinagenic drugs and skitzophrenics who heard voices in their heads telling them to do stuff.
A claim as fantastical as "The rotation of the Earth was reversed..." is not any more or less credible because it's written on papyrus or ancient scrolls as opposed to on your blog. Hey, for all we know, the Pantheon of Gods could have been the generational Superman of ancient history. Maybe it was the Pantheon that flew around the planet in the reverse direction and went back in time?
QF,
"The historical record is full of vagueness and lies though."
Just like the mathematical and scientific record.
"There were PR people back when all the religious myths and superstitious rituals were just being invented, too, and not to mention hallucinagenic drugs and skitzophrenics who heard voices in their heads telling them to do stuff."
Likewise in mathematics.
"A claim as fantastical as "The rotation of the Earth was reversed..." is not any more or less credible because it's written on papyrus or ancient scrolls as opposed to on your blog."
Assume the opposite of what you assume now. Assume for a second that history actually happened. Assume that history is not fantastic. What evidence do you have to show that the Earth has always spun in the same direction for 6 billion years?
Well, for starters, are there dead riverbeds showing considerable geographic erosion starting on on the leeward sides of all mountain ranges on Earth?
I don't think it would discredit the thesis no matter what the answer to that might be.
Well, I think that reversing the rotation of the Earth would obviously do exactly what I have just described.
Gentlemen:
I wanted to stay out of this because, one, I didn't even think it merited comment, and, two, I wanted to see how Quantum_Flux handled the discussion.
(Quantum_Flux did well.)
But after seeing it develop there are a few things I wanted to say.
OilIsMastery stated: "Assume the opposite of what you assume now. Assume for a second that history actually happened."
This is as vacuous a comment as I've ever seen OilIsMastery make (and I've seen a lot of vacuous comments, both here and at other websites.)
It has absolutely no content or probative value.
It's a strawman, obliquely suggesting Quantum_Flux was denying all historical accounts; of course, he did nothing of the kind, rather he made the reasonable and quite factual statement that many accounts in the historical record are false or have been misinterpreted by those bent on promoting an agenda or simply mistaken.
There are numerous reasons why quotations are false or misinterpreted, it's the most slippery type of historical evidence to rely on.
OIM states: "Assume that history is not fantastic. What evidence do you have to show that the Earth has always spun in the same direction for 6 billion years?"
Quantum_Flux never did assume history is fantastic. Physical laws of momentum and inertia suggest any cataclysmic stopping and retrograde of the Earth would cause unprecedented upheaval. And, of course, something would have to also rejolt the planet to get it rotating as it does now.
When somebody in the course of discussion raises the quote, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", I usually dismiss it as being a way to raise the bar for assessing various competing and rival scientific hypothesis based on the evidence in hand, so whatever evidence has been raised and examined can be dismissed out of hand.
My standard is that all scientific claims start at the same "starting line" and have the same burden of proof, regardless of the supposed consensus or priority of the competing claims.
But retrograde rotation truly is an extraordinary claim!
In my opinion you do need an extraordinarily high level of evidence to support such a claim.
OilIsMastery, the burden falls on you to show evidence for your claim, not on Quantum_Flux to disprove it.
As you have stated in various fashions many times, you can't disprove a pink unicorn is out in the garden.
Your hypocrisy is stunning in this instance and sadly, reminds me of many other instances of similar conduct that I turned a blind eye to in the past.
It doesn't help your case, as people easily see through it, and conclude, rightly, I'm afraid, that you are an unprincipled debater that adds nothing to the discussion.
Or you are a complete loon not to be taken seriously.
And, here, all you have are a handful of quotes for your proposition.
This is a congenital deformity of your style -- you rely on quotes as argument and evidence -- quotes suppliment argument and evidence, they are not a wholesale substitution.
(This is another reason, among many, why you have been banned from so many comment boards.)
The retrograde rotation you claim supposedly happened during historical times, would cause the whole of world civilization to have been impacted in a cataclysmic way.
For those few who survived, it would be tramatic to say the least, everybody who could write would write, not just in one region or civilization, but all over the world.
Government records would chronicle it, poets would sing of it, and priests would lament of it, and a whole host of others, too, no doubt. Fleets of philosophers would expound on it.
It quite literally would be carved in stone all over the world to be forever immemorialized.
Yet, OilIsMastery, you offer only a handful of quotes.
It simply doesn't cut it. You have drank too deeply and freely from the cup of Velikovsky Kool-Aid, and it's you who has lost his bearings, not the Earth.
Sure, mathematicians have been wrong, I have stated as much numerous times. But, again, that isn't evidence for your assertion.
It has no evidentiary or probative value, whatsoever, in regards to your claims.
You have to know that, but you do it anyway.
This Velikovskianism of yours is making you lose touch with evidenciary standards if not with reality, itself.
Your argumentation style was already congentially deformed.
I'm sorry to take you to task, but I can stand by silent no longer.
Anaconda,
Either one denies the historical truth of Herodotos's historical claim or not.
Either one denies the historical truth of Euripides or not.
Either one denies the historical truth of Plato or not.
I do not deny the historical truth of their claims. Obviously the two of you do.
Anaconda,
"But retrograde rotation truly is an extraordinary claim!"
Indeed, which is why it's a good thing I have so many mulitple corroborating souces from the historical record. Unfortunately certain people like to deny history.
P.S. Venus has retrograde rotation so it's not so extraordinary is it?
Venus is actually being held up by a half-oyster shell too.
"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotos, historian, ~430 B.C.
For those who disagree with this quote, what evidence do you have that Egypt was ruled by kings who were gods in human form?
The pyramids are a good start.
"Four times in this period (eleven thousand three hundred and forty years, so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up."Herodotos, historian, ~430 BCEVery interesting. Clearly the method of calculating time (33+1/3 years)x(341 generations) (=11,366 years actually) is insufficient for making such a statement over such a long timespan....definantly not a mathematician as well.
Sun rising contrary to experience in a dubious timespan (what about Noah's Generations of 1000 years!? Or 120 years? LOL!)? That is a riddle, perhaps, but I wouldn't conclude retrograde rotation from it. Again, there could be a number of different things this could be, but with the vagueness and my lack of supplemental historical knowledge, plus the imprecise state of the original studies performed by Heroditus, plus the uncertain state of the historic traditions passed on by the egyptians to the point of the original study, I'd just be guessing what that passage is supposed to mean.
Would not a reversal occur if the poles shifted?
The earth tips while rotating.
We know the earth has a magnetic orientation. All that is required?, my naivety!, is that there exists a larger magnetic field in the solar system, say from the sun and that the earth is trapped within it, but it will also be stable if it is reversed?
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