Tuesday, August 4, 2009

How Old Is Egypt?

The customarily ignored history of planet Earth gives perhaps contradictory dates as to when the Land of Egypt was settled. Herodotus gives the date of ~11,770 B.C. while Plato gives the date of ~8,500 B.C.

"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotos, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"She [Venus] founded your city [Athens] a thousand years before ours [Sais], receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old." -- Plato, philosopher, Timaeus, 350 B.C.


DanielW said...

I remember reading that the weathering on the Sphinx isn't wind damage but water damage, which pushes it's date of construction back roughly a thousand years, if not more-so (possibly as far as 7 thousand years).

Jeffery Keown said...

Regarding the founding of Sais, why the connection to Venus? Yes, Plato regarded the patron goddess of Sais (Neith) with Athena... Athena is easily identified with Venus.

So in the dialogue you quoted, you replaced it with Venus, no problem with that.

Who was this Venus you refer to?

A folk hero, raised to the status of a goddess? An actual goddess? An Atlantean busy-body whose hobby was civic planning?

How about (if the story has any creedance at all) a primordial personage from a prior civilization (a pre-dynastic tribal egyptian queen of sorts?) whose back-story seems to match that of a similar queen in Greek pre-history?

Have the two of them, Athena and Neith, become confused with each other, so that the ancients regarded them as the same person?

OilIsMastery said...


You are absolutely correct. The sphinx is eroded by water and so much so that it is in fact much older than popularly believed. See Robert M. Schoch and John A. West on this subject (sidebar).

OilIsMastery said...


Venus is currently the second planet from the Sun.

Jeffery Keown said...

Say again?

The planet Venus established Athens and Sais?

Do I read you correctly? Please clarify.

OilIsMastery said...

Yes. Sais was built on the Great Pit which obviously occured when Venus was ejected as a fission product from Jupiter.

The Venus Temple Ruins of Sais.

Jeffery Keown said...

So... Velikovsky again.

Have you ever heard of parsimony?

Give it a try. You'll find that folks don't stare so much.

Let me see... 12,000 years ago (+/-2000 years) Venus is ejected from Jupiter, the solar system is knackered up for a few years, humans survive the passage of an Earth-sized comet passing between here and the moon, the Earth's spin is flipped back and forth a few times as Comet-Venus rains complex hydrocarbons into our atmosphere, and from the ashes of this destruction, the post-Oops civilizations spring. (Thus, Sais, and by extension, all of Egyptian history is born of Venus.)

Atlantis is flung from it's tropical home to the pole, North American life is devestated and folks remember all these events as the actions of a bunch of squabbling gods? Did I miss anything?

That is not the simplest answer, but dollars to donuts you'll go to your grave defending it. That, at least, I can respect.

However, and this is my last word on the matter, not a word of it is true. It's all crap. How you can be so right about some things and so far off base on (so many) others is beyond my comprehension.

You are one of a kind. (and I thank what gods there may be for that)

OilIsMastery said...


Not Velikovsky. History.

"And in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion." -- Clement of Alexandria, priest, Stromata, 2nd century

"On leaving the market-place along the road to Lechaeum you come to a gateway, on which are two gilded chariots, one carrying Phaethon the son of Helius (Sun), the other Helius himself." -- Pausanius, geographer, Description of Greece: Argolis

"...consider what impetuous force
Turns stars and planets in a diff'rent course.
I steer against their motions; nor am I
Born back by all the current of the sky.
But how cou'd you resist the orbs that roul
In adverse whirls, and stem the rapid pole?"-- Ovid, Metamorphoses Book II: Phaeton, 8

"The folded serpent next the frozen pole"-- Ovid, Metamorphoses Book II: Phaeton, 8

"The running conflagration spreads below.
But these are trivial ills: whole cities burn,
And peopled kingdoms into ashes turn."-- Ovid, Metamorphoses Book II: Phaeton, 8

"The stars were fled, for Lucifer had chased
The stars away, and fled himself at last."--Ovid, Metamorphoses Book II: Phaeton, 8

"Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets." -- Aristotle, philosopher, Meteorology, 350 B.C.

"...all the comets that have been seen in our day have vanished without setting, gradually fading away above the horizon; and they have not left behind them either one or more stars." -- Aristotle, philosopher, Meteorology, 350 B.C.

"Democritus however, insists upon the truth of his view and affirms that certain stars have been seen when comets dissolve." -- Aristotle, philosopher, Meteorology, 350 B.C.

"...the stars...fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall." -- Aristotle, philosopher, Meteorology, 350 B.C.

"As Zeus's daughter she'll be immortal and live in heaven with her brothers, Pollux and Castor, the heavenly twins, an extra star for ships to steer their courses by." -- Euripides, playwright, Orestes, 408 B.C.

"There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals." -- Sonchis of Sais, priest, ~594 B.C.

"As when the son of devious-devising Kronos casts down a star, portent to sailors or to widespread armies of peoples gliterring, and thickly the sparks of fire break from it, in such likeness Pallas Athene swept flashing earthward and plunged between the two hosts; and amazement seized the beholders, Trojans, breakers of horses, and strong-greaved Achaians." -- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book IV: 75-80

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:" -- Revelation 12:4

"For he [Manasseh] built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal [Venus the Lord of the Flies], and made an Asherah, as did Ahab king of Israel, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them. -- II Kings 21:3

"He [Tiamat] marked the positions of the wandering stars to shine in their courses, that they may not do injury, and may not trouble any one." -- Enuma Elish, Fifth Tablet of Creation

OilIsMastery said...

"Nay, truly, I might carry this matter still higher, and if one planet must be made parent another, justly claim the principal place for Jupiter, probably above 200 times as big as our Earth, and the largest and most considerable of all the Sun's chorus...." -- William Whiston, mathematician, 1737

Jeffery Keown said...

"'Twas then, they say, the swarthy Moor begun
To change his hue, and blacken in the sun."
Ovid, Metamorphoses Book II: Phaeton

Wow... so Africans are supposed to be white people except that Helios's stupid kid couldn't control the sun/chariot/celestial horses/conveyance/ufo/the planet Venus.

Ovid tells us that dark skin is an affliction. Great lesson, that. It's a horrid and ignorant made up story to explain natural phenomena. Most likely the tale of some actual impact events, passed down and distorted. The bit about the Africans was probably supposed to be funny to them.

I'm not laughing.

Fungus FitzJuggler III said...

Sorry but there are several thousands of us at least.
I have never been a freemason, but I understand that their mysteries relate to these events. There is an interesting site which also refers to EU theory and the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Apparently many of their procedures can be better understood if there is an awareness of EU thoery.
Be careful, Jeffery, we are everywhere!

Jeffery Keown said...

Be careful, Jeffery, we are everywhere!

There are facets of EU I'm down with. EM is unquestionably important, even dominant on some scales.

Jupiter spiting Venus across the sky? Rubbish.

OilIsMastery said...


Excellent job ignoring Pythagoras, Democritus, Euripides, and Homer. You get full credit. Did Velikovsky use a time machine to conspire with them again?

Jeffery Keown said...

Excellent job ignoring Pythagoras, Democritus, Euripides, and Homer. You get full credit. Did Velikovsky use a time machine to conspire with them again?

It's not so much that I ignore them, but that I pay more attention to modern, provable, repeatable science.

Nice dodge of the dumbass/jingoistic/primitive goofball/just plain racist angle on Ovid's work. Do you cherry pick everything you cite to this degree?

As for Velikovsky... he was just as guilty as you were, reading too much into various myth cycles and taking it too literally.

OilIsMastery said...

History trumps science.

"If, occasionally, historical evidence does not square with formulated laws, it should be remembered that a law is but a deduction from experience and experiment, and therefore laws must conform with historical facts, not facts with laws." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

OilIsMastery said...

"To trace the origin of the solar system is archaeology, not physics." -- Hannes O.G. Alfvén, physicist, 1954

Fungus FitzJuggler III said...

I may be wrong on the order, but the Greeks say that Kronos gave birth to Uranus which was the father of Saturn again the father of Jupiter. Then came Venus. From Ra. Saturn. Earth had left by then, the orbit of Saturn. So Sol was the most significant and hence the heretic Akhnaton denanded worship of it. Thus monotheism.
The scientific evidence is that Venus was a comet as she had long hair. This was her tail which is still detectable by NASA today. It used to lash the earth hence her hot temper and the massive scars which gradually got less. I would worship it if I had to flee to a cave to survive when she got nearer!

Fungus FitzJuggler III said...

Venus will eventua;\lly be found to be a new planet. The rate of change of eg atmosphere and expansion will confirm this. Where did it come from? OIM says we should listen to those who witnessed it. Who am I to disagree?

Jeffery Keown said...

Who am I to disagree?

If you have to ask, don't ask.

History trumps science.

Unless, of course, history was written by those with agendas, personal bias, religious distortion (i.e. almost everything ever written) or it was written as "history as allegory."

Oh, or if that history describes the physically impossible.

OilIsMastery said...

What has already happened cannot be impossible.

Fungus FitzJuggler III said...

We had that exchange on pyramids: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/191284-Is-There-A-Cave-Complex-Under-Giza-Pyramids-
Well, apparently and unsurprisingly, there is. After the inundations it makes sense to use such "natural" structures and then literally, to build on them?
See you in the caves sometime!